Murder vs Killing

Murder vs Killing
bewiser
Newbie

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jul 30, 2010

Total Topics: 1
Total Posts: 14
#31 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 30, 2010 - 5:00 PM:

"Killing", as you have described it, is something done when a large group of people have, by their thought and law, decided to take an action for protection, etc.

"Murder", as you have described it, is when one person plays God and decideds based on his/her own decision, that they will end a human life.
mutemaler
Resident
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jun 17, 2006

Total Topics: 13
Total Posts: 310
#32 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 30, 2010 - 5:31 PM:

bewiser wrote:
"Killing", as you have described it, is something done when a large group of people have, by their thought and law, decided to take an action for protection, etc.

"Murder", as you have described it, is when one person plays God and decideds based on his/her own decision, that they will end a human life.

There is an easier way to say this, bewiser.

Murder is simply non-sanctioned killing. That covers the bases better. The sanctioning body can be a goverment, a religion, a community, a moral perspective in some sense, some social entity. And just because it says you can't kill someone does not mean they can't. Typically the sanctioning body claims the exclusive right to kill - or can bestow this on individuals acting in its "service".
transfinite
PF Addict
Avatar

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Apr 25, 2010

Total Topics: 159
Total Posts: 2276
#33 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 30, 2010 - 5:34 PM:

I define killing as the destruction of a life. Homicide is the killing of a human being. Murder is deliberate homicide. Its as simple at that. We kill bacteria. A homicide may result from a car accident. And murder results when someone points a gun at your head and pulls the tricker. I am opposed to the killing of higher forms of animal life, including humans. I am definitely opposed to capitol punishment (legal murder). Period.

mutemaler
Resident
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jun 17, 2006

Total Topics: 13
Total Posts: 310
#34 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 30, 2010 - 5:45 PM:

transfinite wrote:
I define killing as the destruction of a life. Homicide is the killing of a human being. Murder is deliberate homicide. Its as simple at that. We kill bacteria. A homicide may result from a car accident. And murder results when someone points a gun at your head and pulls the tricker. I am opposed to the killing of higher forms of animal life, including humans. I am definitely opposed to capitol punishment (legal murder). Period.

The problem is that these are private meanings, although I am sure you could find some company with them. And it would seem to lead you to seeing a world literally full of murder. Everywhere you look, murder. Murder, murder, murder (all soldiers for example would be murderers to you, regardless, any policeman who kills someone in the line of duty would be a murderer, regardless). Not an easy thing to live with I would think. For psychological but also practical reasons.

I assume you are a vegan or something similar?
transfinite
PF Addict
Avatar

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Apr 25, 2010

Total Topics: 159
Total Posts: 2276
#35 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 30, 2010 - 5:59 PM:

I will never kill an animal but I enjoy eating edible ones that have been killed by someone else.
mutemaler
Resident
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jun 17, 2006

Total Topics: 13
Total Posts: 310
#36 - Quote - Permalink
Posted Jul 30, 2010 - 7:05 PM:

transfinite wrote:
I will never kill an animal but I enjoy eating edible ones that have been killed by someone else.

I think that words guide action, or let's just assume that. And assume that you are the one "rendering words", you are the authority. And these words have moral implications.

At first with your definitions I might thing "seems clear enough", and be satisfied with that (and I think that was also your intent with them by the way). But as I went about my daily affairs I could be rather confused, and you might very well paralyze me into in-action. I might not know whether a contemplated action of mine was good or not, if I would be considered correct or I would be punished.

I think most of all moral systems have to be clear, clear in order to be used as a dependable guide in the own action. About the consistent part I am not so sure (for example to all individuals equally), but probably not. For example it might not be murder for an individual to kill someone from a lower caste or group.
alwayssearching
Resident
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jul 04, 2010

Total Topics: 9
Total Posts: 223
#37 - Quote - Permalink
0 of 1 people found this post helpful
Posted Jul 30, 2010 - 9:44 PM:

transfinite wrote:
I define killing as the destruction of a life. Homicide is the killing of a human being. Murder is deliberate homicide. Its as simple at that. We kill bacteria. A homicide may result from a car accident. And murder results when someone points a gun at your head and pulls the tricker. I am opposed to the killing of higher forms of animal life, including humans. I am definitely opposed to capitol punishment (legal murder). Period.


It's fine to define what you mean by a term when discussing something specific with someone else. When the issues are clear and the words themselves seem to be getting in the way.

However, to make the topic of the discussion one's personalised use of the words doesn't really help. The words are defined in a dictionary. I suspect people are making a heirachy of types of killing in their minds - murder sounds worse, homicide sounds next worse and killing is the generic. It doesn't work that way, when a broader discussion involving several people is underway, we have to try to use common terms of reference. Any decent dictionary will use the words "unlawful" when describing murder. You can not have justifiable murder, but you can have justifiable homicide. 'Justifiable murder' would be like saying justified unlawful intentional killing of a human being. Justified and unlawful are opposites here.

A mother is swept away by a flood, she is holding her unconscious husband's head up out of the water, her 4 year old daughter is holding onto her head, and she is getting tired. She releases her husband to help the child. Using your definitions, has she committed murder or homicide, or was it the water? I kill myself, where does that fall in your definitions? I come home and am stabbed by an intruder, I fall to the floor and he continues to attack me, I shoot him and kill him, do you really see this as murder?
transfinite
PF Addict
Avatar

Usergroup: Sponsors
Joined: Apr 25, 2010

Total Topics: 159
Total Posts: 2276
#38 - Quote - Permalink
1 of 2 people found this post helpful
Posted Jul 31, 2010 - 1:04 AM:

Capital punishment is not justified homicide. It is legalized murder. When soldiers kill each other in battle they are engaging in legalized murder, i.e., intentionally killing another human being. When a policeman kills someone who is pointing a gun at him, he is engaging in legalized defensive murder. To say murder is unlawful homicide is too narrow a definition especially when lawful is relative to different legal systems. When a women is stoned in Iran, it is not legalized homicide. It is legalized murder in a perverted legal system. When the Nazi gased sex million Jews, it was not legalized homicide. It was legalized murder!.
alwayssearching
Resident
Avatar

Usergroup: Members
Joined: Jul 04, 2010

Total Topics: 9
Total Posts: 223
#39 - Quote - Permalink
0 of 1 people found this post helpful
Posted Jul 31, 2010 - 4:53 AM:

transfinite wrote:
Capital punishment is not justified homicide. It is legalized murder. When soldiers kill each other in battle they are engaging in legalized murder, i.e., intentionally killing another human being. When a policeman kills someone who is pointing a gun at him, he is engaging in legalized defensive murder. To say murder is unlawful homicide is too narrow a definition especially when lawful is relative to different legal systems. When a women is stoned in Iran, it is not legalized homicide. It is legalized murder in a perverted legal system. When the Nazi gased sex million Jews, it was not legalized homicide. It was legalized murder!.


Murder sounds bad, and from that perspective I agree that the examples you give are really bad killings. Murder has a specific definition, it includes unlawfulness. Despite it being misused in common speech, despite the emotive strength the word carries, you can not have an lawful murder. Because murder is subject to the laws of a state, an act of stoning a woman in Iran and the exact same act in the US, might result in the act being a murder in one state and not the other. Since laws are different in different states, of course the term is relative (wow and that's from me on my Quixotic attempt to fight relativism smiling face). Do you have any support for your definition, or do you accept it is your own personal definition of the word, or do you rely on the increasingly common misuse of the word?

I note you avoided answering my questions at the end of my post above, does your definition work on those examples?
swstephe
PF Addict
Avatar

Usergroup: Moderators
Joined: Apr 20, 2006
Location: San Ramon, California

Total Topics: 39
Total Posts: 1480
#40 - Quote - Permalink
1 of 1 people found this post helpful
Posted Jul 31, 2010 - 11:06 PM:

transfinite wrote:
Capital punishment is not justified homicide. It is legalized murder. When soldiers kill each other in battle they are engaging in legalized murder, i.e., intentionally killing another human being. When a policeman kills someone who is pointing a gun at him, he is engaging in legalized defensive murder. To say murder is unlawful homicide is too narrow a definition especially when lawful is relative to different legal systems. When a women is stoned in Iran, it is not legalized homicide. It is legalized murder in a perverted legal system. When the Nazi gased sex million Jews, it was not legalized homicide. It was legalized murder!.


The legal definition of murder is "illegal intentional homicide". So "legalized murder" is an oxymoron, because it means "legal illegal intentional homicide". Once it is legalized, it is just "intentional homicide". Your definition from a few posts ago didn't mention anything about legality, but now you are making that distinction, so it looks like you agree with the legal definition again. So why not just agree with the legal definition? Murder is only murder when it is illegal.

I notice that your definition is quite flexible. Capital punishment is "legalized murder", apparently in the sense that it is technically "murder", but justified as being a legal form of punishment. When you mention Iran, (for the record, they have already banned stoning), you call it "legalized murder", but dispute its definition because you think their legal system is "perverted", (a subjective evaluation), even though it is a form of capital punishment. Then you mention the Nazis, call it "legalized murder". I'm not sure if you meant that in the sense of your first usage, as in the case of capital punishment, (that it was technically "murder", but justified under a non-perverted legal system), or as in the sense of Iran stoning), or another example of a perverted legal system. Actually, I think the legal system of Nazi Germany was about the same as anywhere else in the west, and the holocaust was carried out in secret or under special "emergency" rulings.
locked
Download thread as
  • 0/5
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5



This thread is closed, so you cannot post a reply.